intended consequences podcast

In this episode of Intended Consequences, Brian Massey sits down with Deborah O’Malley, founder of GuessTheTest.com, to explore the fast-changing world of AI in experimentation — from A/B testing myths to the ways AI is already changing how digital marketers approach conversion optimization.

And yes, they really do debate whether AI will kill our creativity.

🎧 Listen to the full episode here:


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Are You Running the Wrong A/B Tests?

Deborah pulls no punches: “People are still testing button colors and headlines when they should be testing concepts.”

That’s one of the many interesting misconceptions about experimentation. But as she explains, the most valuable insights come from big, bold tests — especially ones that challenge your brand’s assumptions. And with the arrival of generative AI, we now have the ability to scale those tests like never before.

How AI in Experimentation Is Changing the Game

AI isn’t just writing headlines — it’s redesigning the entire optimization process. Deborah and Brian explore a few critical shifts:

1. Faster Hypothesis Generation

AI can instantly produce dozens of test ideas based on your existing content, analytics, or competitor sites. This helps marketers and CRO pros move from analysis paralysis to active testing — fast.

“You can use AI to brainstorm variations you’d never think of on your own,” Deborah explains. “That means more creative testing… not less.”

2. Pattern Recognition at Scale

While most human optimizers rely on gut instinct or anecdotal evidence, AI can spot trends in user behavior across massive datasets. That means smarter test prioritization, better personalization, and tighter feedback loops.

3. Test Ideas From Outside Your Echo Chamber

AI doesn’t share your brand biases — and that’s a good thing. By using tools like ChatGPT to simulate how different personas react to your copy or design, you can explore radically new angles without waiting for an actual test to finish.

From “Interesting” to “Impactful”

One of Deborah’s boldest claims: We should stop chasing ‘interesting’ test results.

Why? Because what’s interesting isn’t always what moves the needle.

“You want tests that are valid, repeatable, and drive real business results. That’s where AI can help — it brings a level of objectivity and scale that humans alone can’t match.”

In other words, AI in experimentation isn’t replacing us — it’s upgrading us.

Want to Test Better? Start Here.

Whether you’re a CRO veteran or just getting started with testing, this episode is packed with practical insights:

✅ Which A/B tests are still worth running
✅ How to think beyond copy tweaks and start testing experiences
✅ Why generative AI might be your best brainstorming partner
✅ And how to avoid common pitfalls that make test results meaningless

And don’t worry — it’s not all tech talk. Deborah and Brian also cover the human side of experimentation, from internal politics to the fear of failure.

Learn more about conversion-focused web design and redesign that achieves better results faster.

Final Thoughts: Embrace AI in Your Testing Workflow

This episode challenges us to move past the superficial and start building testing programs that matter. Whether you’re optimizing landing pages, ecommerce funnels, or entire customer journeys, AI in experimentation is the lever that can help you scale faster and learn deeper — without sacrificing creativity.

“When used well, AI becomes the co-pilot of every test you run,” Brian says. “It accelerates creativity, supports analysis, and helps you ask better questions — the real key to CRO.”

Want to improve your testing strategy? 

💡 Talk to a Conversion Scientist and start testing what actually matters.

🔬 Learn about our fully-managed Conversion Optimization Services

Links

ABtesting.ai

LinkedIn: How to actually use AI to improve your site

Notion: AI-Driven Experimentation Tools

Google’s document leak uncovered surprising connections between conversion rate optimization (CRO), search engine optimization (SEO) and user experience (UX). Listen in as Conversion Scientists® Joel Harvey and Brian Massey talk about these connections and what they mean for optimizers. 

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TLDR Summary

  • The Interplay of CRO and SEO (01:00 – 04:00)
  • Fundamental Building Blocks of SEO and CRO (04:00 – 06:00)
  • Strategies for Great Content and User Experience (06:00 – 11:00)
  • Balancing Personal Voice with SEO Requirements (11:00 – 14:00)
  • Differences Between Web Design and UX Design (14:00 – 19:00)
  • Importance of User Research in UX Design (19:00 – 23:00)
  • The Holistic Approach to User Experience (23:00 – 26:00)
  • Summarizing the Conversation (26:00 – 28:00)

***

Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) and Search Engine Optimization (SEO) are often seen as separate entities. But there’s a surprising amount of overlap between the two: Both aim to improve user experience (UX) and deliver great content, ultimately leading to higher engagement and conversions. 

Google’s document leak made this abundantly clear. In fact, we’re excited about the connection between CRO, SEO, and user experience.

Let’s explore how these disciplines intersect and how you can leverage their synergy to boost your online performance.

The Interplay of CRO and SEO

When considering the relationship between CRO and SEO, think of them as two sides of the same coin. CRO is SEO. The things that fundamentally improve your SEO are also the things that fundamentally help you to improve your conversion rate.

Google’s recent revelations make this undeniable. The core elements of successful SEO are great content and an excellent user experience. It’s not about keyword stuffing; it’s about quality.

There was a time when SEO was all about exact match domains and keyword stuffing. But those days are long gone. 

Today, SEO is about understanding and meeting user needs, which is precisely where CRO comes into play. 

“It’s not just about keyword stuffing. It’s about having the best content and a great user experience. Those are the real fundamentals of SEO and CRO.”

Fundamental Building Blocks of SEO and CRO

At the heart of both SEO and CRO is a deep understanding of user needs and behaviors. Whether you’re offering content, a product, or a service, the key is to provide something valuable that addresses a problem or fulfills a desire. 

Without this fundamental understanding, your optimization efforts will only go so far. The era of gaming the system with keyword tricks is long gone. Genuine engagement is now the cornerstone of success.

This approach applies to both SEO and CRO. To succeed today, you must adopt a user-centric mindset.

“If people don’t like the content, no matter what you’ve done from the keyword and link perspective, it probably isn’t going to work anyway, because other people aren’t going to be talking about it,” Brian emphasizes.

Strategies for Great Content and User Experience

Creating great content and a seamless user experience requires a balanced approach. On one hand, you need to be yourself and communicate authentically. On the other, you must adhere to the data-driven demands of SEO, such as keyword density and topic coverage. Reconciling these strategies can be challenging, but it’s essential.

Consider this advice from Anne Handley’s newsletter: “Be yourself, be your brand, and talk the way you talk.” 

This encourages a more relaxed, authentic approach to content creation. However, there’s also the technical side of SEO, which often requires precise keyword usage and structured content to rank well.

Start by embracing your unique voice and passion for the subject. Write as if you’re speaking directly to your audience, sharing your insights and experiences in a way that feels natural. 

Joel captures this balance well: “The argument for writing with your own voice is that it has energy and passion. The content is fun. By contrast, whenever you’re writing for parameters to feed an SEO algorithm, it isn’t fun.”

Once you have your core content, refine it to incorporate SEO best practices. This means integrating relevant keywords naturally, ensuring the content flows well and remains reader-friendly. 

By doing so, you’re not only creating content that is optimized for search engines but also maintaining the authenticity and flow of your original message.

Balancing Personal Voice with SEO Requirements

Balancing a personal, authentic voice with the technical requirements of SEO is one of the biggest challenges in content creation. 

Content infused with passion and personality is more engaging and resonates more deeply with users. While SEO is crucial for driving traffic, it shouldn’t overshadow the need for genuine, compelling content.

As Brian says, “If you’re letting SEO lead it completely, that is the tail wagging the dog.” 

Instead, aim for a harmonious blend where SEO insights inform but don’t dictate your content. 

Use data to inform and influence your decisions. Not only will you be able to maintain an authentic voice, you’ll also build a stronger connection with your audience.

Differences Between Web Design and UX Design

Understanding the distinction between web design and UX design is critical. While both aim to enhance user interaction with a website, they do so in fundamentally different ways. 

Web design often centers around aesthetics and layout, focusing on how the site looks and feels. This involves creating visually appealing elements, choosing color schemes, and ensuring the site is attractive to visitors.

In contrast, UX (User Experience) design delves deeper into how users interact with and experience your site. A UX designer’s role involves continuous research and testing to ensure every element on the site meets user expectations and enhances their experience. 

As Brian explains, the UX designer is “designing to the content.” A web designer is generally laying out a page and leaving space for images and copy to be added after they’ve done their job.  

For example, a web designer might create a visually stunning homepage, but a UX designer will take it further by testing how users navigate that page, identifying friction points, and making adjustments based on user feedback. Their process ensures that the design is not only attractive but also functional and user-friendly.

Importance of User Research in UX Design

User research is a cornerstone of effective UX design. It’s not just about creating visually appealing designs, it’s about ensuring every interaction aligns with user needs and expectations. 

User research helps identify and rectify any friction points in the user journey, leading to a smoother and more satisfying experience.

Think about the difference between designing a beautiful website and designing a website that users find intuitive and enjoyable. The latter requires a deep understanding of your users, which comes from thorough research

By gathering insights into user behavior, preferences, and pain points, you can design experiences that are not only visually appealing but also highly functional and user-friendly. 

“User research isn’t just a one-time activity. It’s an ongoing process that involves continuously gathering feedback and making iterative improvements,” Brian emphasizes.

By continuously optimizing each touchpoint, you create a cohesive and engaging journey that fosters loyalty and drives conversions.

For instance, conducting user surveys, interviews, and usability testing can reveal valuable insights about how users interact with your site. These insights can then inform design decisions, leading to a more intuitive and satisfying user experience.

The Holistic Approach to User Experience

Think of user experience like the role of a flight attendant. A flight attendant’s job isn’t just about serving drinks or demonstrating safety procedures. It encompasses the entire journey of the passenger, ensuring comfort, safety, and a pleasant experience from the moment they board to the time they disembark.

User experience works the same way. It’s not just about avoiding errors; it’s about creating delightful, memorable interactions at every touchpoint. 

From the initial website visit to the final purchase, every interaction should enhance user satisfaction. This involves addressing potential issues, eliminating friction, and finding opportunities to delight users and exceed their expectations.

“Nothing exists in a vacuum,” says Harvey. “Nothing exists without its own context. So experience is a holistic thing. Everything you do and show and say to people, as well as how it makes them feel — that’s user experience.”

It’s like a flight attendant who is attentive to small details, like remembering a passenger’s preference or providing reassurance during turbulence. When optimizers pay attention to details in UX design — providing intuitive navigation, fast load times, and personalized content — it can significantly impact user satisfaction and conversion rates.

Your Takeaways

Understanding the deep connections between CRO and SEO is crucial for any digital marketer. Here are the key takeaways:

  • Great Content and User Experience: Focus on delivering valuable, engaging content and a seamless user experience.
  • Authentic Voice: Balance SEO requirements with authentic, passionate content creation.
  • User Research: Incorporate user research into UX design to ensure every interaction meets user expectations.
  • Holistic Approach: Treat user experience as a comprehensive journey, from first interaction to final conversion—just like the holistic care a flight attendant provides throughout a passenger’s journey.

By implementing these principles, you can enhance your digital marketing strategy and achieve better results. Stay tuned for more insights in our next episode! Optimize your user experience: Get a free conversion consultation.

Conversion rate optimization (CRO) is important at every stage of your business. But if you have a low-volume site, you may not be able to do the A/B testing that is the hallmark of so many CRO projects. Here are conversion optimization techniques that work no matter where you are on the CRO spectrum. 

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TLDR Summary

  • Different types of CRO: Pre-post testing vs. A/B testing (00:00 – 5:03)
  • Challenges with low traffic sites and optimizing for them (5:03 – 11:55)
  • Importance of understanding your data and setting expectations (11:55 – 18:31)
  • Role of heuristic analysis and its limitations (18:31 – 24:06)
  • Value of session recordings and heatmaps (24:06 – 28:37)
  • Knowing what and where to test (28:37 – 32:05)
  • Importance of having a conversion strategist and the right team (32:05 – 37:07)
  • Emphasis on systematic experimentation and continuous improvement (37:07 – 45:04)

Download the Transcript

***

Conversion rate optimization is the process of improving your website to increase the percentage of visitors who take a desired action. Whether it’s making a purchase, filling out a form, or signing up for a newsletter, effective CRO can dramatically enhance your online performance. Here are your best options for optimizing your website.

The Spectrum of Optimization

Brian and Joel explain that conversion rate optimization can be viewed on a spectrum, ranging from low-volume sites to advanced data-driven strategies. Each stage requires different approaches and considerations. In this podcast, they explore the different conversion optimization techniques that work for each stage of the spectrum.

Optimizing a Low-Volume Site

On one end of the spectrum is the lower volume website. To optimize these sites, you have to turn up your risk tolerance dial. Since you don’t have a big enough sample size to run accurate tests, you run into the optimization paradox: you have less data to understand how to bring about meaningful change, but you have to drive meaningful change in order to find detectable change.

The conversion rate is essentially a ratio. The smaller your sample size, the more subject the ratio is to fluctuation.

The truth is, it’s very difficult to make changes that win on any website. Even for the best in the business, the batting average is three out of ten. Four out of ten are winners to the dollar. Nobody knows exactly what’s going to work. That’s the puzzle of it. You have to fail systematically to uncover what’s going to work. For smaller websites, that’s even more challenging.

Conversion Optimization Techniques for Low-Volume Sites

Before and After Testing (BA Testing): Change something on the website and wait to see whether it improves results. It’s important to know which tools are needed for the occasion and how many tools you can be using at the same time. And, of course, if you aren’t measuring results, it’s not really optimization.

Home Run Testing: Also known as big swings, where you run an A/B test but apply your results to before and after testing. With this approach, you’re looking for signature wins of 50% to 70% lift. With a relatively small sample size, the math works out because the lift is so big. But you have to be willing to make an optimization error, calling a test a loser because it only had 20 or 30% lift — even if it could have improved things if you had been able to run the test long enough to get the right sample size.

Data-Informed Gut Decisions: On a lower volume website, you have to know your customers. You can have 40 to 30 conversions with the conversion rate showing a delta, but it’s still low volume. You don’t have statistical significance, but if there is no evidence that this is going to hurt you and there is evidence that the change will help you, then do it. Do it and move on.

Choosing an Agency for Low-Volume Sites

If you’re a smaller volume website, there’s bad news. Our full-team approach probably isn’t the best fit for you. The ROI won’t be there, and we don’t do deals unless we feel we can provide measurable value. 

Optimization is about peeling back layer after layer of the onion — different types of onions and different types of data. You have to discover your customers’ preferences. Then you make meaningful changes for them.

Heuristic Analysis

Moving along the spectrum, Brian and Joel discuss heuristic analysis, which involves evaluating a site based on established best practices and design principles.

Heuristic analysis is useful for identifying low-hanging fruit and common issues in website design.

Fix the things that are broken: There’s only one rock-solid best practice. Make sure your site is not broken in a way that prevents people from taking the action you want them to take. 

Context matters: Each website is unique, and what works for one may not work for another. Contextual understanding is essential.

Heuristic analysis has its limitations. What seems like an objectively good idea will have secondary effects. Fixing one issue may break the experience for your visitors. 

Heuristic CRO is also more project-oriented.  Over the long-term  you must maintain constant upward pressure on the conversion rate, because everything else is putting downward pressure on you — ad costs, competition, market fluctuations, new technology. Optimizers watch your data and recognize what’s working, what’s not, and keep moving forward.

Heuristics Plus Message Testing

To take heuristics to the next level, you can use online focus groups or online survey services that let you test your designs. An example is the five-second test. For this type of testing, you design two to four versions of a page and put each variation in front of 25 people for five seconds. Then you ask questions like:

  • Do you know what this company does? 
  • What would you do if you wanted to take action? 
  • Do you think this company is credible?

You’re trying to understand whether people can understand your message at a glance.

The challenge with this type of testing is that people aren’t always honest. They give you the answers they think you want to hear. We like to stick with questions about how well we’re communicating rather than how well we’re presenting the product. That distinction makes sense.

Collecting Data on the Site

As you move further along the spectrum, the focus shifts to more advanced, data-driven strategies. You want to flesh out your heuristics ideas with data, which will reveal things that tend to lead to the most meaningful hypothesis or ideas.

Here, everything starts with asking good questions and running them through various sources of data. You can leverage session recordings, and for higher traffic sites, you can do heat map reports, which tell you where visitors are clicking and how far they’re scrolling on the page. 

This gives you feedback on where problems exist and gives you pointed ideas at the highest level:

  • Where are people clicking on things that aren’t clickable?
  • Where aren’t people clicking that are clickable?

You can use this data to build a better visual hierarchy. This is important because the most important element on the page may be halfway down the page, and only 50% of visitors actually scroll that far. Or you may be overthinking things and making the page more complicated than it needs to be. 

Hypothesis-Driven Testing

Once your site qualifies for AB testing — you can get a reasonable sample size for testing at least one good variation in the space of four to six weeks — you can layer heuristics and data for a full-blown conversion audit assessment. 

A conversion optimization audit reviews your website through the eyes of the visitor. It’s notoriously difficult to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, which is one of the advantages of having an external CRO agency.

An in-house CRO team is prone to test the wrong things. They let group-think interfere with their optimization efforts. 

At Conversion Sciences, we:

  • Follow the scientific method
  • Do a lot of research
  • Collect ideas, score them, and rank them 

A systematic, scientific approach to optimization — experimenting, trying things, and using data to fuel your hypotheses — minimizes risk. The most risky thing is to do nothing. The second most risky thing is to apply group-think to your testing.

The Optimization Spectrum

On one side of the spectrum, you have individual contributors and consultants who do a heuristic review. These people are often able to optimize the low-hanging fruit.

At Conversion Sciences, we work with businesses that have already picked their low-hanging fruit. Because of that, signature wins of 50% to 60% are rare. Our tests generally have 10% to 15% lifts. At higher volumes, we’re able to achieve 3% to 5% lifts that drive constant upward pressure. 

With more sophisticated clients who are already using data effectively, we often discover blind spots. There are things they can’t see or answer questions about. Our Conversion Scientists® can see into those blind spots, and our development team can implement the technical solutions.

The challenge for any optimizer is to balance data collection with forward movement. It’s important to keep testing.

Knowing What and Where to Test

Optimization isn’t just about running tests; it’s about choosing the right elements to test and focusing on high-impact areas. It’s better to get a 2% increase on 100% of conversions than a 100% increase on 1% of the traffic or conversions.

When running an AB test, you want to keep the velocity up. Make sure you’ve always got tests in the water. That’s why it’s helpful to have a CRO agency that can handle development, design, and analytics. 

The Importance of a Conversion Strategist

It’s hard to maintain an in-house optimization program. There are very few conversion strategists — we call them “Conversion Scientists® — who are actually good at optimization.

A successful CRO program requires a skilled team, and the Conversion Scientist is at its core. This person synthesizes data, develops hypotheses, and leads the optimization efforts.

  • Conversion Scientist: The hub of your CRO efforts. Needs to be experienced and data-driven.
  • Support Team: Includes developers, designers, and copywriters who are adept at testing and iterating based on data.

When we do a conversion consultation, we aim to understand where folks are with their business from a conversion volume perspective. We help them understand what their best path forward is, which may or may not involve us. 

If it doesn’t involve us, we take the time and be very present in the moment and give them the best possible advice we can. 

If there is a fit, we do our due diligence to determine how we can provide value. We talk about our core values and our North Star word: longevity. This is key because we can only achieve longevity by working with people we truly believe we can help and putting constant upward pressure on their conversion rates.

We have client relationships that have lasted six years or more. Often, by the time we’ve worked together for six years, we are affecting them internally. They begin to use data and experimentation on other parts of their business. That’s longevity.

Your Takeaway

Your optimization strategy exists on a spectrum. In early stages, you can evaluate the data to understand where friction exists. Perhaps you can perform simple tests. But when you’re ready to hire a CRO agency, you need to find an agency that uses the scientific method, understands how to ask the right questions and run the right tests, and seeks a long-term relationship. 

Stay tuned for more ground rules from Two Guys on Your Website.

When CRO and SEO work together, there is a cycle of increasing advantages, according to technical search engine marketer Jason Fisher. Find out how Jason combines SEO and CRO for a one-two punch that delivers results.

Pictures of Jason Fisher and Brian Massey of Conversion Sciences with the Intended Consequences Podcast logo.

Jason Fisher and Brian Massey


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What if you were Google Search’s therapist? You would be tasked with understanding the mind of Google’s search algorithm, simultaneously seeking to understand the Google mind, and trying to help it make better decisions about the world it manipulates.

This, as it turns out, is the job of the search engine optimizer, or SEO. Maybe we should call them SETs: Search Engine Therapists. For they must not only understand the search algorithm, but they must also be able to help it make better decisions.

And they must do this with the active resistance of Google. Like humans, Google secretly does not want to be helped.

Our intrepid SETs will never have a complete understanding of the Google search mind. So, we are stuck with a simple mantra: “Take the best search traffic we can get and let the website sort it out.”

I’m the guy that focuses on “sorting out” the traffic. Making a website better at finding the buyers in your traffic is called Conversion Optimization, or CRO.

Here lies the delicate balance between making the search mind better at its job (SEO) and making the most of what comes your way (CRO).

Google is a cantankerous patient who makes the therapist pay for the privilege of helping it. We need to use all our weapons to maximize this traffic source.

This is why I invited Jason Fisher onto Intended Consequences. He is a search therapist who gets that the “sorting out” part of the equation is important.

* * *

Jsason Fisher has been doing search marketing for a long time. He cut his teeth on search engine marketing right at the beginning of the century, when search marketing was the like the Wild West. Some years later, he was working for a leading link development company, where he learned the power of back links.

He is filling the technical SEO skills gap, primarily for agencies. And he’s the kind of guy that throws around phrases like “competitor link graphs”.

I was curious how a guy like this sees conversion optimization in relation to his work. Here’s what I learned.

CRO vs. SEO: Advice to new online businesses.

We do a lot of consultations with businesses that aren’t ready for our conversion optimization services. My advice to them is this:

  1. Start working on your organic search strategy.
  2. Use search ads to begin bringing traffic.
  3. Then look at optimizing the site to maximize revenue.

Organic search optimization takes 12-24 months to implement. It takes time to research, to create valuable assets, and to build relevant backlinks. But this cannot be easily taken from the business.

Paid search can begin working immediately, but is subject to the bidding of your competition and the whims of the search engine ad algorithms.

Of course, you don’t have to put conversion optimization on hold during this time, especially if your paid search campaigns aren’t yet profitable.

Cheesburger image titled CRO and SEO Services with callouts saying Conversion Optimization, Accessibility, On-page and Off-page Factors, Over-indexing, Under-indexing, and CRO

What are the components of SEO?

For established websites, Jason discusses four main components of an organic search program:

  1. Accessibility
  2. Indexability
  3. On-page Success Factors
  4. Off-page Success Factors

Portion of a hamburger with label "On-page/Off-page Factors"

Portion of a hamburger with label “On-page/Off-page Factors”

These on-page and off-page success factors are the things the search engines look at to determine your authority for certain queries.

  • Off-page Link Graph: The quality and quantity of links
  • On-0page meta data: Title, internal and extermanl linking, etc.

Host performance is an on-page factor. If you have a good tech stack, you should be good.

Over-indexing and Under-indexing

An often overlooked aspect of your search strategy is that the wrong pages are being indexed.

Portion of a hamburger with label "Over-indexing Under-indexing" pointing to cheese slices.

Over-indexing and under-indexing are important CRO and SEO factors.

Do you have a lot of poor-quality pages indexed on the search engines? This can be a problem.

Do you have quality pages that aren’t indexed? Of course, this should be addressed.

It may seem counter-intuitive that you should remove some content from the search index. Jason says that there is a limited “crawl allotment”. You may be wasting yours on poor-quality pages by marking them as “no index”.

Where does link development fit in today’s digital marketing practice?

Link building starts with creating valuable assets, things that others want to link to. In this sense, Jason sees link development like public relations: you’re trying to get people with authority to link to your work.

It takes a lot of work. Of those solicitation emails that us publishers get daily, only 1% results in a backlink.

Evergreen Content

Portion of hambuger with meat labeled "Content"

Content is the meat of the sandwich.

Evergreen content are those assets that can stand the test of time should be a focus of your efforts.

Update them and relaunch. Always be looking for ways to increase the quality. For example, transcribe videos on that page to text.

Content Blueprint

Start with the top keyword opportunities in your space. For those phrases that you don’t have content for, you can retarget existing content to them, or create new content that addresses them.

You are closing the gap on the most important search phrases for your business.

Your goal is to demonstrate to “the machines” that you are the authority in your space. People are going somewhere to get answers to questions relevant to your business. Why not your website?

Some of these topics may seem counter to your intuition. Why put DIY content on your site when you want to do the work for them? Because it tells the machines that you are the authority for those search phrases.

Can we outsource this content?

It depends on how complex your product or solution is. You may need a subject matter expert to truly develop quality content.

Content that gets visitors to stick around.

Content that gets others to link to it.

How can a website convert more visitors to prospects and customers?

Your website needs to

People overthink product and service pages. Jason likes to focus on those things that differentiate your offering.

Yes, testimonials and customer logos can increase your conversion rate. Yet, selling your brand and it’s values make a big difference.

This is harder than adding logos to your page.

It is especially difficult to do your own writing. We are too close to our businesses to present them in a way that the visitors need. Let an external resource start the page and then review it to ensure it reflects your advantages and brand voice.

All of this is the foundation for a great marketing program.

Search optimization provides the information that can be used across your marketing efforts.

  • Ads
  • Email
  • Converison optimization
  • Phone scripts

You will learn a great deal about your audience and your industry when you look through the eyes of the search landscape.

What do your prospects want? What are your competitors doing? What is missing from your messaging platform?

The content calendar is a marketing roadmap.

Understanding not only what you need to say, but when you need to release messages are key to success in search marketing and marketing in general.

When testing your website, you need to know when to run high-risk tests versus low-risk tests.

For example, during peak holiday traffic, you can learn much from low-risk testing during this high-traffic timeframe.

Write for the machines or write for the visitor?

Jason says that you always write for the visitor. Your selection of topics may be driven by the search engines’ understanding of your industry, but the content is for those entering the search phrases.

Links

Jason Fisher is an organic search marketing veteran with over 15 years of experience.  Jason has helped numerous Digital Marketing Agencies all over the country increase their clients organic search channel sales & revenue by building & executing sound SEO Strategies.

Jason Fisher’s Website

How do you do performance-based web design without putting your creatives in a straight jacket? We asked a designer that has been put in that very situation.

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Tom Niemeyer and Brian Massey of Conversion Sciences


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A group of kids goes to visit a ranch. Behind the ranch house the land stretches uninterrupted to the horizon. The rancher suggests that the kids go out and play. If you tracked the paths of these naturally curious children, you’d find that they stayed close to the ranch house, not venturing far out onto the land. They would tend to remain in safe groups as they played.

The next summer, the kids visit the ranch again. This time, the rancher has built a fence to create a large back yard. Again, the rancher sends the children out to play. This time, their paths would be quite different. You would see them venturing out to the very edges of the yard, exploring in this smaller-but-manageable space. They would move more freely and play more independently.

Now, this parable is based on studies of rats. I’ve turned the data into a more relatable story.

Like the wide open land, the web offers an open expanse of design possibilities. If you believe the research and my parable of the ranch kids, you’ll agree that this may be a bad thing. The study of rats indicated that open spaces elevated anxiety in the rats, while the enclosed space reduced anxiety.

If you’re designing for the web, you are in an open space of possibility. This, according to the research, results in an anxiety response. There’s a whole lot more unknown out there, and every place feels dangerous.

Alternatively, if you fence yourself in, you actually increase the area of consideration. Anxiety is reduced, exploration is increased. But you also quickly find the boundaries.

I keep this study in mind, because I see data as a fence. It creates an enclosed space, a space that can encourage exploration, but it can also create the sense of limitation. Designers are a tough bunch. They want guidelines, but they hate the idea of limits.

This makes them seem like divas, difficult to please in any situation. So what is a data-driven marketer to do?

I decided to put a web designer on the spot.

How do you deal with designers who want guidance, but hate limitations? In other words, how do you introduce data into the design process without putting your creatives in a straight jacket?

I asked a designer. In fact, I asked a designer who we’ve been doing this to for over a year now.

Tom Niemeyer has been the designer-among-nerds here at Conversion Sciences. If there is any doubt that conversion optimization can be improved by a good sense of design, Tom has put it to rest for us.

For me the question is this: How close to the ranch house do you put the fence? This topic required two episodes. Listen to what he says in part one..

“Sometimes we’re running from our old Website more than running toward the new Website”

The three D’s of Web Design

The three “D”s that Tom talks about are fences.
Deadlines. Decision-makers. Desire paths. What are the primary limiters of your design process?

This is going to require some honesty on your part.

On a scale of one to five rate your current project.

  • One to five: The deadline is King.
  • One to five: The decision maker is the Queen.
  • One to five: The end-user is the one-eyed Jack.

How did you score? Most likely there are two that dominate. And this pattern shows up in all of your projects.

Would your teammates agree? Maybe you should ask.

In Part 2 of my conversation with Tom we talk about defending your design with data. Subscribe to get that next episode. And, don’t forget to send us your questions – podcast@conversionsciences.com.

Now go science something.

Resources Discussed

Quick Links

What is the key to creating a persuasive website? Calum Coburn takes a page from the negotiator’s handbook. Learn the key to being persuasive both in person and on the Web.


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“Turn the other cheek.”

This well-worn phrase has come to mean many things. Forgive easily. Don’t over-react. Be strong in the face of adversity.

All of the focus is on the person doing the cheek turning. But the truth is, there is no righteous turning of cheeks without a slap. The full quote from the Bible is this:

“If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also.”

— Matthew 5:39

This is the classic hero’s journey in one sentence. The hero is presented with an event that changes his world. People will hit you. He faces a choice, to strike back or to elevate himself and turn the other cheek. If he passes this test, he will be transformed.

But none of this happens without the slap. This is traditionally the role of the villain in our stories and myths.

The hero’s journey also shows up in our marketing. We call them customer journeys. If we want to make our customers heroes, it begs the question:

Who plays the villain?

One choice for persuasive website

When we are writing persuasively, we have a fundamental choice: Do we emphasize the positive aspects of our offering, or do we emphasize the potential loss that comes from inaction.

In the first case, we are selling our visitors. In the second we are playing the villain, presenting a negative consequence and agitating our heroes into action.

Would you like to know which works better according to science?

Calum Coburn has the data, and he comes with a very interesting perspective: the world of negotiation. Calum is a trainer, coach and consultant to businesses who want to be better at negotiating.

What does he know about persuasion and how can we use it in our digital marketing.

We talk about the concept of “prospect theory,” and today’s guest is an expert. Literally.

Calum Coburn is the Director and Vice President of The Negotiation Experts, a training and consulting firm that enables sales teams to drive measurable profit improvements.

On today’s show, Calum and Brian discuss the finer points of “prospect theory,” along with how to start building the foundations of trust as soon as your prospects see your web copy.

Resources Discussed

Quick Links

What stands in the way of converting marketing leads to sales and revenue? Sammy James has the data and a solution for marketing leads that seem to evaporate when sent to sales.



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Do you remember how we got movie times before the internet? For a large part of my audience, the answer might be “what do you mean ‘BEFORE’ the internet??”.

It was a service called Moviefone 800-777-FILM. Call and it would read the local movie listings to you.

That’s right. People would actually take the phone from the kitchen wall and dial a number to have movie times read to them. This service didn’t shut down until February of 2014.

The men who created this service weren’t making movies or selling tickets. They were making it easier for people to choose movies, eventually leading to them buying tickets. They still did well. Moviefone was sold to AOL in 1999 for $388 million dollars.

The service answered two questions: “Is there a movie I would like to see?” And, “Is there a showtime that works for me?”

The Truth about Marketing Leads

There’s an assumption that sales is going to just [call], that it’s like throwing a piece of steak across the fence to a junkyard dog. You don’t have to worry. They’re gonna grab it. It’s not going to sit there. That’s the assumption of how sales works.

I’m always fascinated by the kind of people that can apply technology to problems even when it seems unintuitive. Why would someone call when they can just look the movie times up in the news paper? Because someone created a service that made it easy enough, that was focused on exactly what was needed, and got the word out about it.

My guest is one of these people.

Sammy James is one of those people who focuses on a problem and single-mindedly work to solve it completely. He sees filling out an online form as the equivalent of sitting down at a restaurant with no waiters. No matter how hungry you are, you’re not going to wait for too long.

Sammy is the founder of Speak2Leads.com a service that connects salespeople to prospects when they fill out a form. It’s a Moviefone-like problem with a Moviefone solution.

What the Data Says: Email, Podcasts, & Lead Conversion

What does the data tell us about effective email, podcasts and converting leads to sales? It's in here.

  • * Biggest misunderstandings
  • * Important metrics
  • * Applying the data
39 page PDF Fits on your phone

  • This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged.

What the data says displayed on phone and spread of pages

Marketing Leads and Your Website

Your website is the Moviefone of your business. Unless you sell an online service, your website’s only job is making it easier for your prospects to make a choice. It answers two questions: “Is this something that will solve my problem?” and “Should I spend more time investigating this solution?”

All of the content you generate to persuade a visitor to buy your product may be wasted time. Your website doesn’t sell your business, it sells the next step. The quote. The demo. The trial. The sales meeting.

When you get back to the office, navigate your website and identify how much of your content is persuading your visitors to buy, and how much of it is persuading them to take one more step.

How much smaller would your site be if it was focused on selling the next step instead of closing the whole deal?

Now go science something.

Links and Resources

Read and Listen

Click anywhere in the transcript to listen.



Can a podcast lend an important human voice to our otherwise robotic digital brands? Here’s what the data says.


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A website has some limitations when it comes to growing your brand. A website has to wait until someone comes to visit. It’s like that kid always hoping someone will sleep over.

You can’t send it out on a tour, like a book author. It won’t fill stadiums with screaming fans. It doesn’t count as a passenger so you can use the HOV lane.

When you think about it, a website is more like the brick and mortar store of the digital world. Actually, if you’ve seen the way websites are designed, they are really more like a booth at a generic convention. In Topeka.

If you saw your website at a party, how long would you want to hang out with it, if at all? Isn’t your website more teller machine and less Teller.

Fear not, for the digital world offers a way to lend your digital brand the humanity your website struggles with.

What the Data Says: Email, Podcasts, & Lead Conversion

What does the data tell us about effective email, podcasts and converting leads to sales? It's in here.

  • * Biggest misunderstandings
  • * Important metrics
  • * Applying the data
39 page PDF Fits on your phone

  • This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged.

What the data says displayed on phone and spread of pages

Podcasting is a Shortcut to our Hearts

We’ve been talking about the Cluetrain Manifesto lately, and thesis number three says that conversations between brands and people “sound human” and are “conducted in a human voice.”

Even today, this sentiment flies in the face of our tightly controlled, highly produced, and frequently foiled image-building campaigns. But we know it’s true.

Because, there is a shortcut to your customers’ hearts, and it’s not through their stomachs. Nor is it through open heart surgery. It’s through the holes we use to drain our airpods sitting on either side of our heads.

It’s podcasting.

So how does podcasting work in a digital marketing context. How do you measure it? And what can you expect from this semi-digital medium.

I went to the source. Rob Walch is VP of Podcaster Relations for LibSyn, the leading podcast host. The guy who said, “If you want to be on the radio, just call in a lot!”

It’s an opportunity to go long form with potential clients or with your target audience. You don’t have to be in pitch mode all the time. You can be yourself. You can talk about real benefits. That’s it. It’s it’s the opposite of Twitter”

I vented some of my frustrations with Podcasting — hint: it’s not a direct response medium — and got an unexpected answer. He also shared with me the data behind the top shows that Libsyn hosts.

When you get back to the office…

What would the voice of your brand be? Or who? Would it be you? Could it be you?

Have you ever practiced your radio voice. I’m using mine now.

Since you’re probably in your car now, you should give it a try. Drop your voice into the back of your throat and push air out with your diaphragm. Then let your voice drop and rise on random words.

Now, try describing your favorite movie. “In a world before running water…”

If you’re stopped at a light, don’t worry. People in other cars will just think you’re singing along to your favorite Bon Jovi tune. Unless they’re listening to this podcast too.

So, how did that feel, giving yourself a voice, a voice designed to communicate? How would it feel to give your brand a voice like that?

Again, could that voice be yours?

Now go scare someone with your radio voice.

Links and Resources

It’s a big question. “When should I invest in conversion optimization for my website?” Even though I’ve been preaching the benefits of CRO since 2006, I don’t consider it an obvious decision. Instead of telling you what I think, I asked a competitor to tell you, just to keep me honest.


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We have answered the question, “How do I pick a conversion optimization consultant,” before. We’ve also told you where to go and get your CRO budget. Now we answer the question of “when” is the right time for conversion rate optimization.

If I’m going to truly help you improve your online business, I have to help you answer this question. The problem is that I have a conflict. It’s easy for me to say, “Hire my company, Conversion Sciences.”

It’s my fiduciary duty as the Managing Partner. Getting new clients is one of the goals of this podcast and why we spend so much time and money on it.

I am eminently qualified to answer this question because of my years of experience, BUT I’m NOT going to be the best source of information on this because I am biased.

So I did something crazy, something that arguably violates my fiduciary duty to my company.

Don’t tell my partner.

Getting a second opinion on Conversion Rate Optimization

To help make you better at investing in conversion optimization services, I did something I may regret.

I invited a direct competitor onto this podcast. Why would I, after all of my investment in producing and marketing this podcast, offer a platform to a competitor?

Because you need a second opinion. Rather than make you go out and find it, I’m going to provide it to you right here on the podcast.

I believe that if I help you answer this question, you will make a better decision. I also believe that our reputation, our brand value and our track record make our brand strong. Strong brands can take risks, especially those that can benefit their customers and prospects.

There are a LOT of websites that need conversion optimization. There is plenty of business to go around.

To help you make the decision about buying conversion optimization services, I didn’t choose some slouch conversion optimization agency spewing best practices. Jon MacDonald is the founder and President of conversion optimization agency called The Good. He has been doing this almost as long as I have. I have to tell you, I was surprised at how similar our two approaches are.

And Jon’s path is very similar to mine.

“If you’re not getting the traffic and engagement to even prove your product is sustainable, then you really shouldn’t be investing in optimizing.”

When you get back to the office…

I recommend that you get an understanding of how small increases in your conversion rate can affect your income.

Search for “Conversion Sciences Calculator” using your favorite search engine.

There you can enter your average monthly traffic, the number of conversions you get, and the value of a conversion — either the transaction order value or the value you’ve placed on a lead or subscriber.

If you aren’t sure, don’t worry. You can play “what if” with the numbers after entering your name and email.

It’s the first step toward understanding if your business is ready for conversion optimization. If you like what you see there, you can schedule a free conversion consultation on our website.

Now go science something.

Positioning your product or service requires understanding the root desire of your website visitors. This changes from visitor to visitor. Positioning your offering generically to appeal to them all doesn’t work. Find out what does.

 

Why do people buy robot vacuums?

Is it to clean the floor? Maybe.

Is it to have more leisure time? Maybe.

Is it to be seen as tech-savvy to your friends? Hmmm.

Is it to see how your cat will react? That’s interesting.

These are the kinds of questions that the “Jobs to be Done” framework seeks to tease out. Your website and your marketing should address one or more of these positioning statements — at least the valid ones.

“So, Jobs to be Done is a framework that is used to understand the crux of what your customer or potential customer is looking for, to understand what is driving them in the moment where they are ready to make a purchase.”

How do businesses like Casper and Warby Parker carve out space in competitive markets? By positioning the product to a market desire that isn’t obvious to the market leaders.

“Casper was brilliant in convincing people with perfectly fine mattresses that they needed to receive a mattress by mail.”

This is what me and Tara Hunt, my guest on this episode of Intended Consequences discuss. We also talk about the Flywheel approach.

Positioning your product or service accurately is one step. The next is to get into the minds of your audience. Casper used podcasts as one salient way to reach their audience.

“Casper was on podcasts and people that listen to podcasts tend to think companies that advertise on podcasts are cool.”

How to Manage Positioning Your Product or Service

If you’re like me, the positioning ideas are crowding around in your head right now. Old ideas that you thought were just too risky to try are vying for attention against new ideas from my conversation with Tara.

It’s time to give your intuition a little help.

When you get back to the office, immediately open up a clean spreadsheet. Label the first column “Idea”. Label the second column “Data”.

Start jotting the thoughts in your head in the first column. Just describe them enough so that you can recall them in detail later. If you need to draw something, reference the page in your journal in the Idea column.

The “Data” column is where you will list ways to test the idea. List any and all of these that apply:

  • Similar campaigns that have succeeded
  • A report in analytics that you should run to get evidence
  • A strategy for trying the idea in the marketplace safely
  • Surveys, focus groups, or user testing that could vet the idea
  • Any allies that may have supporting evidence for the idea

This is the beginning of your hypothesis list, a list that should guide your curiosity as you write, design, plan and create communications.

Get in the habit of opening it when you start a new design, document or project.

Now go science something.

Links and Resources

Connect with Tara on Linkedin
Learn more about Truly.
Cluetrain Manifesto
Donna Pappacosta “Earbud Intimate”
Jim Collins Flywheel
Know Your Customers’ “Jobs to Be Done”
Imagineering Story Trailer
Follow Brian on LinkedIn

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