intended consequences podcast

Twenty to thirty percent of the organic traffic arriving at B2B websites has evaporated. Sahil Patel does not think it is coming back.

Sahil runs Spiralyze, one of the largest conversion optimization agencies in the business, with more than 170 people across sixteen countries. Conversion Sciences has stayed deliberately small for almost twenty years.

Two agencies that took opposite roads on nearly every decision a founder gets to make, which is what makes the conversation worth an hour.

The surprise is how much the two of them still agree on. What follows is what came out of it, starting with a number that belongs on the wall of every B2B marketing team.

🎧 Listen to the full episode here:


The denominator shrank and nothing else did

Ask Sahil whether the SaaSpocalypse everyone predicts is real or mostly noise, and he goes straight to the traffic.

“I think the first layer of that palpable fear is that 20 to 30% of their organic traffic has evaporated,” he said. “And it’s probably not coming back.”

For every thousand people come to your website, let’s say roughly a hundred of them were ready to raise a hand. Some of those people wanted to talk to a sales rep. Some wanted to start a free trial. A large group in the middle wanted something in between, an interactive demo or a real look at how the product works, a hopeful request for a report.

Then only eight hundred people come to your site instead of a thousand. You are still converting roughly ten percent of them, so eighty people raise a hand instead of a hundred. Nothing about your website got worse. Your team did not get worse. The denominator shrank.

“Your cost structure hasn’t shrunk, your growth targets haven’t shrunk,” Sahil said. “If anything, they’ve gone up and your job has gotten harder.”

You are carrying the same payroll and the same overhead against twenty percent fewer opportunities, and you are being asked for more of them than last year. A marketing team that executes exactly as well as it did twelve months ago now posts a shortfall, and that shortfall arrives looking like a performance problem when it is actually an arithmetic problem.

Asking the barber if you need a haircut

Asking two CROs if CRO matters is like asking your barber if you need a haircut. “The answer’s always yes,” says Sahil.

Nonetheless, optimization matters more now than it did when traffic was cheap. There are fewer humans coming to the site, and each visitor has to carry more of the revenue.

On this point, there was agreement.

If human visitors are becoming scarce, then the cost of losing one to a confusing form, an unanswered objection, or a page that buries the value proposition rises in direct proportion to the scarcity.

That is not a sales pitch. It follows from the same arithmetic as the section above. Scarcity raises the value of the asset, and right now the asset is the visitor who is still showing up.

As Sahil put it, “human beings come to your website, you better do a damn good job of converting them once they get there, because they’re increasingly rare.”

Coin operated, or structurally better

The most useful idea in the whole hour is a test for where to invest your marketing dollar.

An ad campaign is coin operated. You put a coin in, something comes out, and the moment you stop feeding it the output stops. There is nothing wrong with that, and most businesses need it.

But it has diminishing returns and it never compounds. What is ending is the era when traffic in general behaved that way.

“I think for a long time in B2B, getting more people coming, we took it for granted,” Sahil said. “It was hard, it was expensive, but you could mint traffic. It was coin operated. You put a coin in Google AdWords and it works. Or you did SEO, whatever that means to you. It was kind of coin operated.”

That machine is getting more expensive and less reliable every quarter.

Optimization is a different kind of investment.

With CRO “you’re actually structurally improving your business,” he said. “You’re going to fundamentally convert traffic at a higher rate. That’s a great payoff. There’s just not that many things you can do that.”

Raise the rate at which visitors convert and every dollar of traffic bought from that day forward is worth more, including the traffic already being paid for. It does not switch off when the spending stops.

If you have never worked out, you will see real results from a twenty minute walk three times a week. If you have dabbled — some pushups, a little jogging — you have already seen a small benefit, and that small benefit is the dangerous part. It convinces you that you know where the ceiling is.

What you don’t know is, what if you really did the work. Do some pull-ups. Pay attention to your diet. Put in the cardio every morning. Add a little resistance training. How much better could you be? “I think that’s CRO.”

Most companies are in the dabbling phase. They ran some tests, saw a lift, and concluded that testing produces small lifts.

The advantage of CRO is that you can hire someone to do the work for you and get the full benefit.


Could a CRO program get your business in shape? Learn about our fully managed Conversion Optimization Services.


The next crossover is agents

We’ve seen a traffic crossover happen once already, and it was not gradual.

When we started testing, almost everything was desktop. We had a wide screen to work with and a decade of design conventions to draw on.

Then, at client after client, mobile traffic crossed the line, exceeding desktop traffic. That was a fundamental shift in how you design a web page. A shrunken version of a desktop page would no longer work. Plenty of teams did not believe it at the time, and if I am honest, I am not sure a majority of sites have fully made the shift even now.

The same thing is going to happen with agents. There will be a point where traffic from agents crosses traffic from people. For ecommerce sites doing a redesign in 2026 are going to have to redesign in 2027, because ten or twenty or twenty-five percent of the visitors will not be human.

Somebody is going to build the agent that is easy-to-use, reliable, and fun. This will be the Friendster-to-Facebook moment for this category.

Sahil is more skeptical. He is not sold on the version of the future where people research, read and buy entirely inside a chat tool.

“That’s where I would say there’s a, ‘we’ll see,'” he said. “People are very quick to say there’s not gonna be any more websites or it’s just gonna be agents talking to each other wherever agents go to hang out when we’re sleeping. Maybe, but I would [say] it’s too early to tell.”

Anyone old enough to remember the early internet and the early days of Amazon should be humble here. Nobody could have predicted in 1999 what Amazon would become.

The difference is the speed with which LLMs are changing the digital landscape. We had ten years to figure out what the internet was going to be, and twenty-five years for Amazon to become what it is. This time the runway looks more like “ten months.” That is exciting, and also a little nerve-racking.

It is the reason to build the muscle before you need it rather than after.

Why generated test ideas are so cheerful

Anyone running an optimization program is getting pitched by the same companies. They will generate twenty-five test hypotheses for your site and rank them for you.

In my experience, most of what comes back is not testable. The ideas start heuristically from whatever is on the page, and the majority are either things worth simply fixing without an experiment or things not worth the traffic at all.

Sahil’s diagnosis is that it is a data problem rather than a language model problem.

“Claude thinks every AB test is a winner,” he said. “It thinks every idea is a good idea, not just because it’s eternally optimistic, but because it’s largely been trained on the public data set.” His team went and looked at the case studies the model tends to reference. There are about 213 of them. Of those 213, 211 are winning tests.

Claude has “Winner’s Curse,” he said. “It only knows what’s winning. It’s only interviewed the World Series winners.”

That is the peer review problem wearing different clothes. Clinical trials that fail don’t get published, so the published literature systematically overstates what works. Anyone reading only the literature walks away with a distorted picture of the field.

Sahil’s wife is a scientist at the CDC.

He points out that the FDA rightly sets a high bar for what goes into a human body, and only medicine that works should get there. But the scientists themselves spend as much time studying what did not work as what did, and often more.

What you need in order to prioritize a testing roadmap is a distribution of outcomes, wins and losses together, at enough volume to see how often a pattern actually repeats.

Our industry publishes almost none of the losses.

There are periodic calls to share losing tests and Sahil notes they are few and far between. Neither agency in this conversation has a clean record on it. Losing tests get published when they make a point, and rarely otherwise.

What to ask any optimization vendor

Given all of this, what should a company ask of a CRO agency?

His standard comes from medicine. If someone hands you a cough medicine, you ask whether it has been tried, on whom, and how often it worked. We do that instinctively for things we put in our bodies, and we accept that some trials are well run and some are not. We do almost none of it for the things we put on our websites.

“It’s amazing how much is pseudoscience and anecdotes dressed up as best practice,” he said about websites.

So there are three questions to ask about any recommendation, template, or best practice you are handed.

How many times has this been tested.

How much traffic was tested against it.

How often does it win.

“Is it a repeatable outcome?” Sahil said. “Nothing works all the time. But I think that’s a very reasonable bar to ask someone, and if their answer is evasive, I think it may be a sign that they don’t have that, because it actually hasn’t been shown to be repeatable.”

Turn the question around: Ask what your agency is doing to make the process more efficient, and then ask whether they are going to let you see what your business is actually doing.

Analytics is how you walk around your website the way you would walk around a store, watching where people buy and how they are being handled at the counter. Can you get that at a granular level, on demand, without filing a request?

This is the one place where the language models have genuinely delivered. Analytics and reporting capability has gone through the roof in the last twelve months.

Clients hire an optimization team because they want more revenue from the traffic they already have. They stay because somebody is watching their back, helping them understand their visitors. They’re revealing language and offers from the landing page that they can take to their ads, their emails, and their social posts.

What did not change

Two things won’t change in this new era.

The first is that you measure what people do, not what they say. “There’s a difference between what people say they will do and what they will do,” Sahil said. “And AB testing measures the second thing.”

Conversion Sciences sees your website as a giant focus group made up of people who have already signaled that they are interested in what you do.

Put those same people in a room and ask which design they prefer and you will get confident, articulate, useless answers. We are all excellent rationalization engines. Watch what they actually do and you will learn much more, continuously, for free.

Video is a good example.

Where you place a video is important. Put a video on a conversion page and it competes with the primary call to action, which as Sahil put it creates an exit ramp at exactly the wrong moment. It gives the visitor something to do instead of filling out the form.

Put it on a solution page, where the visitor has already said they want to understand how the thing works, and it helps them take the next step.

Conversion Sciences testing adds one refinement. The title card is what moves the conversion rate. A better title card will not get more people to press play, but it will convert more of the people who see it.

The second thing that did not change is that unscalable work still pays. Sahil deliberately does a few things every month that make no economic sense at his size. “I like to go see customers in person,” he said. “It’s super expensive. I could talk to six of them in a day on Zoom versus flying somewhere and talking to one, but I still think it’s important to do it.”

That is the scarcity argument from earlier in this post, applied to people instead of pageviews. As agents absorb more of the routine contact in a customer relationship, showing up in person becomes rarer, and rarer means worth more.


💡 Talk to a Conversion Scientist about what your traffic is worth now.

🔬 Learn more about our Conversion Rate Optimization services.


Links

Spiralyze

Watch this episode on YouTube

A note on how this was made: a language model produced the first draft of this post from the episode transcript, and a human being edited it before publication. All quotes are verbatim from the recorded conversation.

Stop building GA4 reports. Conversational analytics lets digital marketers ask plain-English questions of their data and get answers. Free prompt kit inside.

This is the third presentation in our Pocket Conversion Scientist® series.

Your Website Knows More About Your Prospects Than You Think

You just can’t hear it yet.

Every session, every channel, every dropped form, every product page that converts at 0.8% when it should be at 3%. It’s all in your analytics right now.

The problem isn’t the data. It’s how we’ve been accessing it.

Building reports takes time. And even when you do it, you get numbers. Not answers.

I’ve been doing CRO since 2007. We’ve built scorecards, dashboards, custom Google Sheets that pull from the API. We’re pretty sophisticated about this. But nothing has changed our analysis the way this has.

You can now have a plain-English conversation with your analytics data.

Ask it what’s wrong. Ask it what’s working. Ask it why that traffic channel dropped off in March. It will tell you.

Here’s how we do it, and how you can start.


Why Most AI Website Tools Get This Backwards

The AI tools pitching you right now have this backwards.

They look at your website and hand you a list of things to fix. I’ve tried a number of them. We haven’t adopted any.

Here’s why. They skip your data. They start with your pages, not your analytics. So what they give you is best practices dressed up as personalized recommendations.

That’s a problem.

A page that’s performing well is a dangerous page to change. There are more ways to hurt it than help it. If you’re testing ideas that aren’t grounded in your actual data, you’re guessing.

Conversational analytics starts where we start. With the data.


How to Connect AI to Your Google Analytics

There are two ways to connect a language model to Google Analytics.

The first is an MCP server. MCP stands for Model Context Protocol. It’s essentially an API that’s designed for AI to use. Once connected, your language model can query your analytics directly.

Google provides instructions for setting this up. Allocate about 45 minutes. It involves granting credentials and OAuth setup, which gets a little nervifying if you’re not a developer. My advice: paste Google’s guide into your AI and have it walk you through each step.

MeasureU has also published setup guides for Mac and Windows if you want more hand-holding.

The second option is EverOpt, and it’s what we use.

EverOpt connects via the Google APIs directly, which means fewer hallucinations. Most AI tools read a table and fill in the gaps with pattern matching. EverOpt generates JSON and SQL to pull the actual numbers. That’s a meaningful difference when you’re making decisions based on the output.

It also has memory, a daily or weekly briefing agent, and supports Tag Manager, PostHog, and Convert.com.


The Three Prompts That Get You Started

We’ve put together three prompts that get you started.

Here’s what each one does.

The first is the Business Health Audit.

Tell the AI to act as a CRO and business intelligence leader. Ask it to deliver a plain-language health report on your analytics. Tell it not to change anything yet.

It will figure out what kind of business you are just from the data. Then it will tell you which traffic channels are performing, which aren’t, and drill down to the specific campaigns or products causing problems.

The output is a rich report. Read it in full. Or paste it into your ongoing business AI and let it start building strategy from there.

The second prompt is Sellable Traffic.

Not all of your visitors are trying to buy anything.

Bots, AI scrapers, blog readers, existing customers logging in, internal employees — they inflate your session count and suppress your conversion rate. This prompt identifies and removes them so you’re working with numbers that actually mean something.

In one example, removing invalid traffic moved a site’s conversion rate from 3.2% to 3.6%. Without changing a single page.

Once the AI identifies what to exclude, tell it to remember those exclusions for all future analyses. In EverOpt, it saves that to memory and applies the filter automatically.

The third prompt is the Weekly Brief.

Most digital marketers don’t check their analytics every week. This prompt fixes that without requiring you to go anywhere.

Set it to compare 90-day trends against the last 7 days. Ask it to flag traffic channel changes, conversion rate shifts, form abandonment rates, and 404 errors. In EverOpt, paste the prompt into the briefing feature, set your cadence, and it emails you the report.

One of our client briefs flagged a spike in SMS conversions we never would have caught manually. Now we know what drove it, and we can do more of it.


What to Ask Once You’re Connected

Once you’re connected, the questions you can ask are limited only by what’s in your data.

Build funnels. Graph trends. Diagnose why a channel underperformed last month. Examine any A/B tests running on the site.

You can even ask why a variation won or lost. Paste in screenshots of both and the AI will help you build hypotheses. That “why” question has always been the hard one. It still is. But now you have a place to start.

Tell it to interview you about your business. The more context it has, the sharper the analysis gets.


Go Have a Conversation With Your Data

I was a little reluctant to put this together.

This has become a real competitive advantage for us at Conversion Sciences. Being able to walk into a client conversation with an inventory plan or a traffic diagnosis that most agencies don’t even think to produce. That changes the conversation.

But we’ve decided to give away the good stuff.

You’ve got the setup. You’ve got the prompts.

Go have a conversation with your data.

Get the free prompt kit at conversion.science/ad+lp.

RESOURCES

Conversational Analytics Prompt Kit

Connecting AI to Your Analytics

Google MCP Setup

Measure U Guides

Download the Mac Guide
Download the Windows Guide

EverOpt

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Conversion Sciences: https://conversionsciences.com

Pocket Conversion Scientist Series

Using AI to Generate Copy that Converts

Ad + Landing Page Alignment

There is a fundamental disconnect in our organizations that is showing up in our ad campaigns.

One team creates and manages the ads, Meta ads, Google ads, Bing ads. The landing pages from which the ad team chooses were created by another team, the web team.

The ad team has one priority: increase traffic and demand that generates revenue. The web team has a number of goals, most of which involve publishing pages.

These goals are not aligned.

How bad can things get?

We pulled the ad portfolios of dozens of brands and compared them to the landing pages that serve those ads link. We were surprised that so many brands had serious alignment issues:

  • Ads linking to the home page
  • Ads linking to pages without calls to action
  • Landing pages that served dozens of different ads

Here are some of the things I cover in my presentation, which you can watch on YouTube.

Why does ad spend keep rising while conversion rate stays flat?

Because the ad makes a promise (an offer, a headline, a specific claim) that the landing page doesn’t keep, so no amount of extra spend fixes a ceiling caused by the page itself.

What is the Ad Alignment Report?

An AI-generated audit that pulls a client’s full ad portfolio, matches every ad to the landing page it points to, and flags where the offer, headline, or design don’t line up.

What does a 4.7-to-1 ad-to-landing-page ratio actually mean for a business?

It means nearly five different ads, each with a different promise — different offers, headlines, calls to action — are all dumping traffic onto the same page. It’s difficult to create a single landing page that can support so many ads and still have a high conversion rate.

The larger the ad-to-landing-page ratio, the more likely your ad spend is being wasted on misalignment.

Why do so many ads land on the homepage instead of a dedicated page?

Because building and maintaining a landing page for every ad is more work than most teams can keep up with. When the website has no good alternatives, the homepage is chosen by the ad team.

Unfortunately, the homepage isn’t designed to convert ad traffic. It serves many kinds of visitors and can’t speak to any single ad’s specific promise.

What are “The Ten Alignments”?

The ten factors a landing page should match from its ad:

  • the offer
  • headline
  • call to action
  • trust and proof
  • product or service

These are the five that matter most.

Add to these:

  • image
  • brand
  • tone
  • URL
  • color

These add extra connections for those who click on the ads.

Does every alignment factor matter equally?

The first five (offer, headline, CTA, trust/proof, product) carry most of the weight. Get those wrong and the visitor’s trust breaks before the smaller details even register.

Why do social ads and search ads need different alignment strategies?

Because social ads interrupt someone who wasn’t looking for you, while search ads meet intent someone already had. The landing page has to pick up the conversation differently in each case.

What happens when an ad’s specific offer never appears on the landing page?

The visitor who clicked specifically for that offer, like AVE’s “4 Months Free,” arrives to find no trace of it and has no reason to trust the rest of the page.

Why does a headline mismatch hurt more than it seems like it should?

It removes the visitor’s confirmation that they landed in the right place, so instead of reading on, they’re left wondering if they clicked the wrong link.

Why does tone matter as much as offer or headline?

Because a warm, personal ad voice followed by a clinical form-heavy page creates a jarring shift at the exact moment trust needs reinforcing, and visitors disengage from that whiplash.

Can this alignment work actually be automated?

Yes. AI trained on landing page best practices can generate a matching page for each ad’s specific offer, headline, and tone, which is what the AVE and Careforth “Safe at Home” rebuilds demonstrate.

What do you do once a landing page is already well aligned?

Test a differentiators band (trust signals placed above the fold) or a Good-Better-Best pricing ladder that anchors value with a high first price, both shown on Uline’s pages.

How should a business manage alignment across dozens or hundreds of landing pages?

Either use personalization and A/B testing tools to adjust the page per visit for smaller portfolios, or generate aligned pages with AI and route ad traffic automatically for larger ones.

Why does this matter more now than it used to?

Because Google’s AI and Performance Max now factor landing page quality into ad delivery itself, so a weak page doesn’t just lose conversions anymore, it quietly drags down the ads pointing to it too.


Frequently Asked Questions

What is ad-to-landing-page alignment?

Ad-to-landing-page alignment is how closely a landing page matches the offer, headline, and promise made in the ad that sent the visitor there. When the ad and the page tell different stories, visitors lose the sense that they landed in the right place and leave before converting.

Why do my ads convert but my landing page doesn’t?

Usually because the landing page doesn’t keep the specific promise the ad made. A generic homepage or product grid can’t speak to five different ad offers at once, so most visitors arrive expecting something the page never delivers.

What is message match in PPC advertising?

Message match is the practice of echoing an ad’s exact headline, offer, and value proposition on the landing page it links to. It’s one of the core inputs Google uses to score landing page experience, which directly affects Quality Score and cost per click.

Why doesn’t my ad’s offer show up on my landing page?

This usually happens when ad copy and landing page copy are created separately, often by different teams. Without a shared alignment check across the ad portfolio, an offer like “4 months free” can vanish entirely by the time a visitor lands.

What are the most important elements to align between an ad and a landing page?

The five highest-impact factors are the offer, the headline, the call to action, trust and proof, and the product or service featured. Together these carry most of the alignment score. Image, brand, tone, URL, and color refine it further.

Should every ad have its own landing page?

Not necessarily one-to-one, but a portfolio where dozens of ads all route to a single homepage is a strong signal of misalignment. A useful benchmark is your ad-to-landing-page ratio. Anything close to 5:1 usually means most ads are landing somewhere generic.

How does landing page alignment affect Google Ads Quality Score?

Landing page experience is one of three components of Quality Score, alongside expected click-through rate and ad relevance. A page that doesn’t match its ad’s message can raise cost per click even when the ad itself performs well.

Can AI generate landing pages that automatically match each ad?

Yes. AI trained on landing page best practices can generate a page variant for each ad’s specific offer, headline, and tone, then route that ad’s traffic to its matching page automatically. This is especially useful for portfolios too large to manage by hand.

RESOURCES

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Conversion Sciences: https://conversionsciences.com

Last webinar: Using AI to Generate Copy that Converts

Audio Podcast

AI can write website copy that outperforms 80% of what is online today.

You just have to teach it who it is writing for.

In this episode of Intended Consequences, Conversion Sciences founder Brian Massey shows you how to use AI to generate website copy that actually converts.

The secret is not a better prompt.

It is writing for the four ways people make buying decisions.

You will learn the Modes of Research framework, first published in “Waiting for Your Cat to Bark,” and how to map it onto Myers-Briggs types so any language model speaks your language.

Then you will watch live rewrites that turn flat, jargon-filled copy into messaging built for Competitive, Methodical, Spontaneous, and Humanist visitors.

By the end you can build your own AI messaging agent in ChatGPT, Claude, or Gemini and let it do the rewriting for you.

WHAT YOU WILL LEARN

  • Why most B2B copy sounds the same and caps your conversion rate
  • The four research modes and the buyer behind each one
  • How to use Myers-Briggs as a shared vocabulary with any AI
  • The simple prompt that teaches your chatbot to rewrite by mode
  • How to generate personas straight from a URL
  • How to A/B test copy that is finally different enough to win
  • How to build a reusable AI messaging agent for your brand

CHAPTERS

00:00 Why AI copy beats 80% of website copy
01:30 Styrofoam copy and the conversion ceiling
02:40 How our own biases sabotage copywriting
04:10 ICPs and the four-persona problem
05:40 Corner cases: copy big enough to A/B test
06:00 The 4 Modes of Research framework
06:50 Competitive and Methodical buyers
08:00 Spontaneous and Humanist buyers
09:30 Placing copy on the page by buyer mode
10:30 Why language models beat humans at this
11:20 Myers-Briggs as a shared language with AI
14:00 The simple prompt to train your chatbot
15:00 Generating personas from a URL (Calm.com)
17:40 Rewriting copy for each mode, live
24:00 B2B example: HR services, CHRO vs CFO
29:50 Laying out multiple voices on one page
31:00 Q&A: getting your team to trust AI copy
33:20 Building your own AI messaging agent
38:00 What is next: ad and landing page alignment
38:50 Q&A: CTAs, ad frequency, and brand salience

RESOURCES

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Messaging skills and full prompts: AI Messaging Skills

Conversion Sciences: https://conversionsciences.com

Book: “Waiting for Your Cat to Bark” by Bryan and Jeffrey Eisenberg: https://conversci.com/catbark

Roy H. Williams and the Wizard Academy: https://www.wizardacademy.org

Subscribe for more on conversion optimization, AI, and the experiments behind what actually works.

In a recent conversation, Brian Massey and Andy Crestodina explored the shifting landscape of digital marketing as Artificial Intelligence (AI) becomes the “third partner” in the relationship between brands and customers. This shift is fundamentally changing the purpose of a website—from a destination for human eyes to a critical knowledge source for AI training.

As AI models like ChatGPT and Gemini increasingly act as “sales reps” or agents for your brand, the strategy for building and maintaining a digital presence must evolve. Here is the breakdown of how to adapt your website for this new era.

The New Role of Your Website

For decades, websites were built for search engines (SEO) and humans (CRO). Today, a third audience has emerged: AI LLMs (Large Language Models).

  • AI as a Sales Rep: AI helps users decide if a brand is a good option by ingesting data from across the web.
  • Knowledge Sources: Your website is your best chance to tell your full story—who you serve, how well you do it, and your specific credentials—because it is the only digital property where you have unlimited space to provide data to AI knowledge sources.
  • The Conversion Trap: While AI traffic may be a small percentage of total visitors today, these users often arrive “further down the funnel” because they have already had long conversations with the AI about their specific goals and context.

Actionable Steps: How to Optimize for AI and Humans

To remain competitive, marketers must “plug holes” in the data AI currently has about their brands.

1. Prioritize Extreme Clarity and Detail

If you were making a page specifically for an AI bot, you would prioritize maximum information over user experience (UX). While you shouldn’t puke “sitemap.xml” onto your homepage, you should ensure your sales and service pages are packed with specific data.

  • List Proof Points as Text: Don’t rely solely on images or trust seals. AI crawlers may not “see” the pixels of an award badge, so you should list these credentials as text to ensure they are ingested into the training data.
  • Define Your “Who” and “How”: Clearly state who you do work for, what the outcomes are, and the credentials of those doing the work.

2. Ditch the Generic Assets

AI learns nothing from generic marketing fluff.

  • Kill the Stock Photos: Brian Massey has long argued against stock photos, but now there is a “moral high ground”: happy people laughing at a laptop tells AI nothing about your brand’s unique value.
  • Stop Trying to Please Everyone: The mistake many marketers make is being too broad. Use your content to disqualify the wrong prospects and better qualify the right ones.

3. Shift Your SEO Strategy

The “crash in click-through rates” for top-of-funnel informational queries means that optimizing articles for generic keywords is less sustainable.

  • Focus on Commercial Intent: Double down on optimizing sales and service pages for traditional search and AI, where visitors still have “visit website intent”.
  • Write for Humans (and Personality): AI can recognize brand personality and humor. Don’t “ring out the cleverness” of your writing; instead, let your brand’s unique voice act as a “culture fit” for potential clients.

4. Feed the AI Beyond Your Website

AI training data isn’t just pulled from your domain; it’s pulled from everywhere.

  • The “Podcast Pitch”: Because Google (which owns YouTube) has access to video transcripts, any podcast or video appearance is a training opportunity. Always give your clear “pitch” during recorded interviews to ensure that language is ingested and associated with your brand.
  • Utilize Other Channels: Since Google is less likely to promote your informational articles today, focus on email, social media, and platforms like LinkedIn or YouTube to reach your audience and train AI models simultaneously.

Finding the “Weakest Link”

Ultimately, marketing should still start from the bottom up. Before worrying about ranking for a new informational keyword, Andy Crestodina recommends looking at the end of the conversion chain.

  • Optimize CTAs: Higher click-through rates on calls to action offer immediate value.
  • Fix Contact Forms: Use data to find and eliminate friction in your final contact steps.

The digital landscape is moving toward a hybrid model where AI handles the “deep research” and humans make the final connection based on trust and brand experience. By treating your website as a rich data source for AI today, you ensure you are the brand recommended tomorrow.


Taking a cue from Andy’s own suggestion during the interview to “give it to a tool that synthesizes or summarizes it for us,” this blog post was generated by a Large Language Model (LLM) using the full transcript of the conversation between Brian Massey and Andy Crestodina.


Checklist: AI-Friendly Website Elements

Use this checklist to ensure your “AI sales reps” have the best information to recommend your brand.

1. Essential Brand Data (The “Who, How, and Why”)

  • Detailed “Who We Serve”: Explicitly list your target industries and customer types in plain text.
  • Specific Outcomes: Describe the exact results you achieve (e.g., “reduced churn by 20%”) rather than using generic marketing fluff.
  • Credentials as Text: Don’t just show award logos; list awards, certifications, and years of experience as crawlable text.
  • Author Bios: Include detailed bios for your team with links to LinkedIn or other publications to establish authority.

2. Conversational & Structural Clarity

  • Direct Answers Top-of-Page: Place the main answer to a query within the first 50–60 words of a section.
  • Extreme Clarity: Abandon “clever” copywriting in favor of high-detail language that defines concepts clearly.
  • TL;DR / Key Takeaway Blocks: Add short summaries at the top or bottom of long sections to make them easy for AI to synthesize.
  • FAQ Sections: Use real customer questions as headings to capture long-tail AI queries.

3. Technical “Machine-Readable” Elements

  • Logical Heading Hierarchy: Use only one H1 per page, followed by properly nested H2 and H3 tags.
  • Schema Markup: Implement JSON-LD schema, specifically Organization, Product, Review, and FAQPage.
  • Descriptive Alt Text: Include context that explains the value of the image (e.g., “Chart showing 40% ROI increase for B2B client”).
  • Semantic HTML Tags: Wrap your content in tags like <main>, <article>, and <section> so AI knows which parts are primary.
  • llms.txt File: Create a simple Markdown file in your root directory to provide a “map” specifically for AI crawlers.

4. Brand Personality Training

  • Consistent Tone: Maintain a unique brand voice across all pages so AI can associate specific traits with your brand.
  • Original Data/Insights: Publish original research or case studies that only your brand can provide, making you a “high-quality” source.

Links

Video Podcast

Orbit Media Studios

Oliver Emberton

In this episode of Intended Consequences, Brian Massey sits down with Deborah O’Malley, founder of GuessTheTest.com, to explore the fast-changing world of AI in experimentation — from A/B testing myths to the ways AI is already changing how digital marketers approach conversion optimization.

And yes, they really do debate whether AI will kill our creativity.

🎧 Listen to the full episode here:


Ready to improve your site’s performance? Learn more about Conversion Science’s Optimization Services.


Are You Running the Wrong A/B Tests?

Deborah pulls no punches: “People are still testing button colors and headlines when they should be testing concepts.”

That’s one of the many interesting misconceptions about experimentation. But as she explains, the most valuable insights come from big, bold tests — especially ones that challenge your brand’s assumptions. And with the arrival of generative AI, we now have the ability to scale those tests like never before.

How AI in Experimentation Is Changing the Game

AI isn’t just writing headlines — it’s redesigning the entire optimization process. Deborah and Brian explore a few critical shifts:

1. Faster Hypothesis Generation

AI can instantly produce dozens of test ideas based on your existing content, analytics, or competitor sites. This helps marketers and CRO pros move from analysis paralysis to active testing — fast.

“You can use AI to brainstorm variations you’d never think of on your own,” Deborah explains. “That means more creative testing… not less.”

2. Pattern Recognition at Scale

While most human optimizers rely on gut instinct or anecdotal evidence, AI can spot trends in user behavior across massive datasets. That means smarter test prioritization, better personalization, and tighter feedback loops.

3. Test Ideas From Outside Your Echo Chamber

AI doesn’t share your brand biases — and that’s a good thing. By using tools like ChatGPT to simulate how different personas react to your copy or design, you can explore radically new angles without waiting for an actual test to finish.

From “Interesting” to “Impactful”

One of Deborah’s boldest claims: We should stop chasing ‘interesting’ test results.

Why? Because what’s interesting isn’t always what moves the needle.

“You want tests that are valid, repeatable, and drive real business results. That’s where AI can help — it brings a level of objectivity and scale that humans alone can’t match.”

In other words, AI in experimentation isn’t replacing us — it’s upgrading us.

Want to Test Better? Start Here.

Whether you’re a CRO veteran or just getting started with testing, this episode is packed with practical insights:

✅ Which A/B tests are still worth running
✅ How to think beyond copy tweaks and start testing experiences
✅ Why generative AI might be your best brainstorming partner
✅ And how to avoid common pitfalls that make test results meaningless

And don’t worry — it’s not all tech talk. Deborah and Brian also cover the human side of experimentation, from internal politics to the fear of failure.

Learn more about conversion-focused web design and redesign that achieves better results faster.

Final Thoughts: Embrace AI in Your Testing Workflow

This episode challenges us to move past the superficial and start building testing programs that matter. Whether you’re optimizing landing pages, ecommerce funnels, or entire customer journeys, AI in experimentation is the lever that can help you scale faster and learn deeper — without sacrificing creativity.

“When used well, AI becomes the co-pilot of every test you run,” Brian says. “It accelerates creativity, supports analysis, and helps you ask better questions — the real key to CRO.”

Want to improve your testing strategy? 

💡 Talk to a Conversion Scientist and start testing what actually matters.

🔬 Learn about our fully-managed Conversion Optimization Services

Links

ABtesting.ai

LinkedIn: How to actually use AI to improve your site

Notion: AI-Driven Experimentation Tools

Google’s document leak uncovered surprising connections between conversion rate optimization (CRO), search engine optimization (SEO) and user experience (UX). Listen in as Conversion Scientists® Joel Harvey and Brian Massey talk about these connections and what they mean for optimizers. 

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TLDR Summary

  • The Interplay of CRO and SEO (01:00 – 04:00)
  • Fundamental Building Blocks of SEO and CRO (04:00 – 06:00)
  • Strategies for Great Content and User Experience (06:00 – 11:00)
  • Balancing Personal Voice with SEO Requirements (11:00 – 14:00)
  • Differences Between Web Design and UX Design (14:00 – 19:00)
  • Importance of User Research in UX Design (19:00 – 23:00)
  • The Holistic Approach to User Experience (23:00 – 26:00)
  • Summarizing the Conversation (26:00 – 28:00)

***

Conversion Rate Optimization (CRO) and Search Engine Optimization (SEO) are often seen as separate entities. But there’s a surprising amount of overlap between the two: Both aim to improve user experience (UX) and deliver great content, ultimately leading to higher engagement and conversions. 

Google’s document leak made this abundantly clear. In fact, we’re excited about the connection between CRO, SEO, and user experience.

Let’s explore how these disciplines intersect and how you can leverage their synergy to boost your online performance.

The Interplay of CRO and SEO

When considering the relationship between CRO and SEO, think of them as two sides of the same coin. CRO is SEO. The things that fundamentally improve your SEO are also the things that fundamentally help you to improve your conversion rate.

Google’s recent revelations make this undeniable. The core elements of successful SEO are great content and an excellent user experience. It’s not about keyword stuffing; it’s about quality.

There was a time when SEO was all about exact match domains and keyword stuffing. But those days are long gone. 

Today, SEO is about understanding and meeting user needs, which is precisely where CRO comes into play. 

“It’s not just about keyword stuffing. It’s about having the best content and a great user experience. Those are the real fundamentals of SEO and CRO.”

Fundamental Building Blocks of SEO and CRO

At the heart of both SEO and CRO is a deep understanding of user needs and behaviors. Whether you’re offering content, a product, or a service, the key is to provide something valuable that addresses a problem or fulfills a desire. 

Without this fundamental understanding, your optimization efforts will only go so far. The era of gaming the system with keyword tricks is long gone. Genuine engagement is now the cornerstone of success.

This approach applies to both SEO and CRO. To succeed today, you must adopt a user-centric mindset.

“If people don’t like the content, no matter what you’ve done from the keyword and link perspective, it probably isn’t going to work anyway, because other people aren’t going to be talking about it,” Brian emphasizes.

Strategies for Great Content and User Experience

Creating great content and a seamless user experience requires a balanced approach. On one hand, you need to be yourself and communicate authentically. On the other, you must adhere to the data-driven demands of SEO, such as keyword density and topic coverage. Reconciling these strategies can be challenging, but it’s essential.

Consider this advice from Anne Handley’s newsletter: “Be yourself, be your brand, and talk the way you talk.” 

This encourages a more relaxed, authentic approach to content creation. However, there’s also the technical side of SEO, which often requires precise keyword usage and structured content to rank well.

Start by embracing your unique voice and passion for the subject. Write as if you’re speaking directly to your audience, sharing your insights and experiences in a way that feels natural. 

Joel captures this balance well: “The argument for writing with your own voice is that it has energy and passion. The content is fun. By contrast, whenever you’re writing for parameters to feed an SEO algorithm, it isn’t fun.”

Once you have your core content, refine it to incorporate SEO best practices. This means integrating relevant keywords naturally, ensuring the content flows well and remains reader-friendly. 

By doing so, you’re not only creating content that is optimized for search engines but also maintaining the authenticity and flow of your original message.

Balancing Personal Voice with SEO Requirements

Balancing a personal, authentic voice with the technical requirements of SEO is one of the biggest challenges in content creation. 

Content infused with passion and personality is more engaging and resonates more deeply with users. While SEO is crucial for driving traffic, it shouldn’t overshadow the need for genuine, compelling content.

As Brian says, “If you’re letting SEO lead it completely, that is the tail wagging the dog.” 

Instead, aim for a harmonious blend where SEO insights inform but don’t dictate your content. 

Use data to inform and influence your decisions. Not only will you be able to maintain an authentic voice, you’ll also build a stronger connection with your audience.

Differences Between Web Design and UX Design

Understanding the distinction between web design and UX design is critical. While both aim to enhance user interaction with a website, they do so in fundamentally different ways. 

Web design often centers around aesthetics and layout, focusing on how the site looks and feels. This involves creating visually appealing elements, choosing color schemes, and ensuring the site is attractive to visitors.

In contrast, UX (User Experience) design delves deeper into how users interact with and experience your site. A UX designer’s role involves continuous research and testing to ensure every element on the site meets user expectations and enhances their experience. 

As Brian explains, the UX designer is “designing to the content.” A web designer is generally laying out a page and leaving space for images and copy to be added after they’ve done their job.  

For example, a web designer might create a visually stunning homepage, but a UX designer will take it further by testing how users navigate that page, identifying friction points, and making adjustments based on user feedback. Their process ensures that the design is not only attractive but also functional and user-friendly.

Importance of User Research in UX Design

User research is a cornerstone of effective UX design. It’s not just about creating visually appealing designs, it’s about ensuring every interaction aligns with user needs and expectations. 

User research helps identify and rectify any friction points in the user journey, leading to a smoother and more satisfying experience.

Think about the difference between designing a beautiful website and designing a website that users find intuitive and enjoyable. The latter requires a deep understanding of your users, which comes from thorough research. 

By gathering insights into user behavior, preferences, and pain points, you can design experiences that are not only visually appealing but also highly functional and user-friendly. 

“User research isn’t just a one-time activity. It’s an ongoing process that involves continuously gathering feedback and making iterative improvements,” Brian emphasizes.

By continuously optimizing each touchpoint, you create a cohesive and engaging journey that fosters loyalty and drives conversions.

For instance, conducting user surveys, interviews, and usability testing can reveal valuable insights about how users interact with your site. These insights can then inform design decisions, leading to a more intuitive and satisfying user experience.

The Holistic Approach to User Experience

Think of user experience like the role of a flight attendant. A flight attendant’s job isn’t just about serving drinks or demonstrating safety procedures. It encompasses the entire journey of the passenger, ensuring comfort, safety, and a pleasant experience from the moment they board to the time they disembark.

User experience works the same way. It’s not just about avoiding errors; it’s about creating delightful, memorable interactions at every touchpoint. 

From the initial website visit to the final purchase, every interaction should enhance user satisfaction. This involves addressing potential issues, eliminating friction, and finding opportunities to delight users and exceed their expectations.

“Nothing exists in a vacuum,” says Harvey. “Nothing exists without its own context. So experience is a holistic thing. Everything you do and show and say to people, as well as how it makes them feel — that’s user experience.”

It’s like a flight attendant who is attentive to small details, like remembering a passenger’s preference or providing reassurance during turbulence. When optimizers pay attention to details in UX design — providing intuitive navigation, fast load times, and personalized content — it can significantly impact user satisfaction and conversion rates.

Your Takeaways

Understanding the deep connections between CRO and SEO is crucial for any digital marketer. Here are the key takeaways:

  • Great Content and User Experience: Focus on delivering valuable, engaging content and a seamless user experience.
  • Authentic Voice: Balance SEO requirements with authentic, passionate content creation.
  • User Research: Incorporate user research into UX design to ensure every interaction meets user expectations.
  • Holistic Approach: Treat user experience as a comprehensive journey, from first interaction to final conversion—just like the holistic care a flight attendant provides throughout a passenger’s journey.

By implementing these principles, you can enhance your digital marketing strategy and achieve better results. Stay tuned for more insights in our next episode! Optimize your user experience: Get a free conversion consultation.

Conversion rate optimization (CRO) is important at every stage of your business. But if you have a low-volume site, you may not be able to do the A/B testing that is the hallmark of so many CRO projects. Here are conversion optimization techniques that work no matter where you are on the CRO spectrum. 

2 Guys title slide - episode 1


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TLDR Summary

  • Different types of CRO: Pre-post testing vs. A/B testing (00:00 – 5:03)
  • Challenges with low traffic sites and optimizing for them (5:03 – 11:55)
  • Importance of understanding your data and setting expectations (11:55 – 18:31)
  • Role of heuristic analysis and its limitations (18:31 – 24:06)
  • Value of session recordings and heatmaps (24:06 – 28:37)
  • Knowing what and where to test (28:37 – 32:05)
  • Importance of having a conversion strategist and the right team (32:05 – 37:07)
  • Emphasis on systematic experimentation and continuous improvement (37:07 – 45:04)

Download the Transcript

***

Conversion rate optimization is the process of improving your website to increase the percentage of visitors who take a desired action. Whether it’s making a purchase, filling out a form, or signing up for a newsletter, effective CRO can dramatically enhance your online performance. Here are your best options for optimizing your website.

The Spectrum of Optimization

Brian and Joel explain that conversion rate optimization can be viewed on a spectrum, ranging from low-volume sites to advanced data-driven strategies. Each stage requires different approaches and considerations. In this podcast, they explore the different conversion optimization techniques that work for each stage of the spectrum.

Optimizing a Low-Volume Site

On one end of the spectrum is the lower volume website. To optimize these sites, you have to turn up your risk tolerance dial. Since you don’t have a big enough sample size to run accurate tests, you run into the optimization paradox: you have less data to understand how to bring about meaningful change, but you have to drive meaningful change in order to find detectable change.

The conversion rate is essentially a ratio. The smaller your sample size, the more subject the ratio is to fluctuation.

The truth is, it’s very difficult to make changes that win on any website. Even for the best in the business, the batting average is three out of ten. Four out of ten are winners to the dollar. Nobody knows exactly what’s going to work. That’s the puzzle of it. You have to fail systematically to uncover what’s going to work. For smaller websites, that’s even more challenging.

Conversion Optimization Techniques for Low-Volume Sites

Before and After Testing (BA Testing): Change something on the website and wait to see whether it improves results. It’s important to know which tools are needed for the occasion and how many tools you can be using at the same time. And, of course, if you aren’t measuring results, it’s not really optimization.

Home Run Testing: Also known as big swings, where you run an A/B test but apply your results to before and after testing. With this approach, you’re looking for signature wins of 50% to 70% lift. With a relatively small sample size, the math works out because the lift is so big. But you have to be willing to make an optimization error, calling a test a loser because it only had 20 or 30% lift — even if it could have improved things if you had been able to run the test long enough to get the right sample size.

Data-Informed Gut Decisions: On a lower volume website, you have to know your customers. You can have 40 to 30 conversions with the conversion rate showing a delta, but it’s still low volume. You don’t have statistical significance, but if there is no evidence that this is going to hurt you and there is evidence that the change will help you, then do it. Do it and move on.

Choosing an Agency for Low-Volume Sites

If you’re a smaller volume website, there’s bad news. Our full-team approach probably isn’t the best fit for you. The ROI won’t be there, and we don’t do deals unless we feel we can provide measurable value. 

Optimization is about peeling back layer after layer of the onion — different types of onions and different types of data. You have to discover your customers’ preferences. Then you make meaningful changes for them.

Heuristic Analysis

Moving along the spectrum, Brian and Joel discuss heuristic analysis, which involves evaluating a site based on established best practices and design principles.

Heuristic analysis is useful for identifying low-hanging fruit and common issues in website design.

Fix the things that are broken: There’s only one rock-solid best practice. Make sure your site is not broken in a way that prevents people from taking the action you want them to take. 

Context matters: Each website is unique, and what works for one may not work for another. Contextual understanding is essential.

Heuristic analysis has its limitations. What seems like an objectively good idea will have secondary effects. Fixing one issue may break the experience for your visitors. 

Heuristic CRO is also more project-oriented.  Over the long-term  you must maintain constant upward pressure on the conversion rate, because everything else is putting downward pressure on you — ad costs, competition, market fluctuations, new technology. Optimizers watch your data and recognize what’s working, what’s not, and keep moving forward.

Heuristics Plus Message Testing

To take heuristics to the next level, you can use online focus groups or online survey services that let you test your designs. An example is the five-second test. For this type of testing, you design two to four versions of a page and put each variation in front of 25 people for five seconds. Then you ask questions like:

  • Do you know what this company does? 
  • What would you do if you wanted to take action? 
  • Do you think this company is credible?

You’re trying to understand whether people can understand your message at a glance.

The challenge with this type of testing is that people aren’t always honest. They give you the answers they think you want to hear. We like to stick with questions about how well we’re communicating rather than how well we’re presenting the product. That distinction makes sense.

Collecting Data on the Site

As you move further along the spectrum, the focus shifts to more advanced, data-driven strategies. You want to flesh out your heuristics ideas with data, which will reveal things that tend to lead to the most meaningful hypothesis or ideas.

Here, everything starts with asking good questions and running them through various sources of data. You can leverage session recordings, and for higher traffic sites, you can do heat map reports, which tell you where visitors are clicking and how far they’re scrolling on the page. 

This gives you feedback on where problems exist and gives you pointed ideas at the highest level:

  • Where are people clicking on things that aren’t clickable?
  • Where aren’t people clicking that are clickable?

You can use this data to build a better visual hierarchy. This is important because the most important element on the page may be halfway down the page, and only 50% of visitors actually scroll that far. Or you may be overthinking things and making the page more complicated than it needs to be. 

Hypothesis-Driven Testing

Once your site qualifies for AB testing — you can get a reasonable sample size for testing at least one good variation in the space of four to six weeks — you can layer heuristics and data for a full-blown conversion audit assessment. 

A conversion optimization audit reviews your website through the eyes of the visitor. It’s notoriously difficult to put yourself in someone else’s shoes, which is one of the advantages of having an external CRO agency.

An in-house CRO team is prone to test the wrong things. They let group-think interfere with their optimization efforts. 

At Conversion Sciences, we:

  • Follow the scientific method
  • Do a lot of research
  • Collect ideas, score them, and rank them 

A systematic, scientific approach to optimization — experimenting, trying things, and using data to fuel your hypotheses — minimizes risk. The most risky thing is to do nothing. The second most risky thing is to apply group-think to your testing.

The Optimization Spectrum

On one side of the spectrum, you have individual contributors and consultants who do a heuristic review. These people are often able to optimize the low-hanging fruit.

At Conversion Sciences, we work with businesses that have already picked their low-hanging fruit. Because of that, signature wins of 50% to 60% are rare. Our tests generally have 10% to 15% lifts. At higher volumes, we’re able to achieve 3% to 5% lifts that drive constant upward pressure. 

With more sophisticated clients who are already using data effectively, we often discover blind spots. There are things they can’t see or answer questions about. Our Conversion Scientists® can see into those blind spots, and our development team can implement the technical solutions.

The challenge for any optimizer is to balance data collection with forward movement. It’s important to keep testing.

Knowing What and Where to Test

Optimization isn’t just about running tests; it’s about choosing the right elements to test and focusing on high-impact areas. It’s better to get a 2% increase on 100% of conversions than a 100% increase on 1% of the traffic or conversions.

When running an AB test, you want to keep the velocity up. Make sure you’ve always got tests in the water. That’s why it’s helpful to have a CRO agency that can handle development, design, and analytics. 

The Importance of a Conversion Strategist

It’s hard to maintain an in-house optimization program. There are very few conversion strategists — we call them “Conversion Scientists® — who are actually good at optimization.

A successful CRO program requires a skilled team, and the Conversion Scientist is at its core. This person synthesizes data, develops hypotheses, and leads the optimization efforts.

  • Conversion Scientist: The hub of your CRO efforts. Needs to be experienced and data-driven.
  • Support Team: Includes developers, designers, and copywriters who are adept at testing and iterating based on data.

When we do a conversion consultation, we aim to understand where folks are with their business from a conversion volume perspective. We help them understand what their best path forward is, which may or may not involve us. 

If it doesn’t involve us, we take the time and be very present in the moment and give them the best possible advice we can. 

If there is a fit, we do our due diligence to determine how we can provide value. We talk about our core values and our North Star word: longevity. This is key because we can only achieve longevity by working with people we truly believe we can help and putting constant upward pressure on their conversion rates.

We have client relationships that have lasted six years or more. Often, by the time we’ve worked together for six years, we are affecting them internally. They begin to use data and experimentation on other parts of their business. That’s longevity.

Your Takeaway

Your optimization strategy exists on a spectrum. In early stages, you can evaluate the data to understand where friction exists. Perhaps you can perform simple tests. But when you’re ready to hire a CRO agency, you need to find an agency that uses the scientific method, understands how to ask the right questions and run the right tests, and seeks a long-term relationship. 

Stay tuned for more ground rules from Two Guys on Your Website.

When CRO and SEO work together, there is a cycle of increasing advantages, according to technical search engine marketer Jason Fisher. Find out how Jason combines SEO and CRO for a one-two punch that delivers results.

Pictures of Jason Fisher and Brian Massey of Conversion Sciences with the Intended Consequences Podcast logo.

Jason Fisher and Brian Massey


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What if you were Google Search’s therapist? You would be tasked with understanding the mind of Google’s search algorithm, simultaneously seeking to understand the Google mind, and trying to help it make better decisions about the world it manipulates.

This, as it turns out, is the job of the search engine optimizer, or SEO. Maybe we should call them SETs: Search Engine Therapists. For they must not only understand the search algorithm, but they must also be able to help it make better decisions.

And they must do this with the active resistance of Google. Like humans, Google secretly does not want to be helped.

Our intrepid SETs will never have a complete understanding of the Google search mind. So, we are stuck with a simple mantra: “Take the best search traffic we can get and let the website sort it out.”

I’m the guy that focuses on “sorting out” the traffic. Making a website better at finding the buyers in your traffic is called Conversion Optimization, or CRO.

Here lies the delicate balance between making the search mind better at its job (SEO) and making the most of what comes your way (CRO).

Google is a cantankerous patient who makes the therapist pay for the privilege of helping it. We need to use all our weapons to maximize this traffic source.

This is why I invited Jason Fisher onto Intended Consequences. He is a search therapist who gets that the “sorting out” part of the equation is important.

* * *

Jsason Fisher has been doing search marketing for a long time. He cut his teeth on search engine marketing right at the beginning of the century, when search marketing was the like the Wild West. Some years later, he was working for a leading link development company, where he learned the power of back links.

He is filling the technical SEO skills gap, primarily for agencies. And he’s the kind of guy that throws around phrases like “competitor link graphs”.

I was curious how a guy like this sees conversion optimization in relation to his work. Here’s what I learned.

CRO vs. SEO: Advice to new online businesses.

We do a lot of consultations with businesses that aren’t ready for our conversion optimization services. My advice to them is this:

  1. Start working on your organic search strategy.
  2. Use search ads to begin bringing traffic.
  3. Then look at optimizing the site to maximize revenue.

Organic search optimization takes 12-24 months to implement. It takes time to research, to create valuable assets, and to build relevant backlinks. But this cannot be easily taken from the business.

Paid search can begin working immediately, but is subject to the bidding of your competition and the whims of the search engine ad algorithms.

Of course, you don’t have to put conversion optimization on hold during this time, especially if your paid search campaigns aren’t yet profitable.

Cheesburger image titled CRO and SEO Services with callouts saying Conversion Optimization, Accessibility, On-page and Off-page Factors, Over-indexing, Under-indexing, and CRO

What are the components of SEO?

For established websites, Jason discusses four main components of an organic search program:

  1. Accessibility
  2. Indexability
  3. On-page Success Factors
  4. Off-page Success Factors

Portion of a hamburger with label "On-page/Off-page Factors"

Portion of a hamburger with label “On-page/Off-page Factors”

These on-page and off-page success factors are the things the search engines look at to determine your authority for certain queries.

  • Off-page Link Graph: The quality and quantity of links
  • On-0page meta data: Title, internal and extermanl linking, etc.

Host performance is an on-page factor. If you have a good tech stack, you should be good.

Over-indexing and Under-indexing

An often overlooked aspect of your search strategy is that the wrong pages are being indexed.

Portion of a hamburger with label "Over-indexing Under-indexing" pointing to cheese slices.

Over-indexing and under-indexing are important CRO and SEO factors.

Do you have a lot of poor-quality pages indexed on the search engines? This can be a problem.

Do you have quality pages that aren’t indexed? Of course, this should be addressed.

It may seem counter-intuitive that you should remove some content from the search index. Jason says that there is a limited “crawl allotment”. You may be wasting yours on poor-quality pages by marking them as “no index”.

Where does link development fit in today’s digital marketing practice?

Link building starts with creating valuable assets, things that others want to link to. In this sense, Jason sees link development like public relations: you’re trying to get people with authority to link to your work.

It takes a lot of work. Of those solicitation emails that us publishers get daily, only 1% results in a backlink.

Evergreen Content

Portion of hambuger with meat labeled "Content"

Content is the meat of the sandwich.

Evergreen content are those assets that can stand the test of time should be a focus of your efforts.

Update them and relaunch. Always be looking for ways to increase the quality. For example, transcribe videos on that page to text.

Content Blueprint

Start with the top keyword opportunities in your space. For those phrases that you don’t have content for, you can retarget existing content to them, or create new content that addresses them.

You are closing the gap on the most important search phrases for your business.

Your goal is to demonstrate to “the machines” that you are the authority in your space. People are going somewhere to get answers to questions relevant to your business. Why not your website?

Some of these topics may seem counter to your intuition. Why put DIY content on your site when you want to do the work for them? Because it tells the machines that you are the authority for those search phrases.

Can we outsource this content?

It depends on how complex your product or solution is. You may need a subject matter expert to truly develop quality content.

Content that gets visitors to stick around.

Content that gets others to link to it.

How can a website convert more visitors to prospects and customers?

Your website needs to

People overthink product and service pages. Jason likes to focus on those things that differentiate your offering.

Yes, testimonials and customer logos can increase your conversion rate. Yet, selling your brand and it’s values make a big difference.

This is harder than adding logos to your page.

It is especially difficult to do your own writing. We are too close to our businesses to present them in a way that the visitors need. Let an external resource start the page and then review it to ensure it reflects your advantages and brand voice.

All of this is the foundation for a great marketing program.

Search optimization provides the information that can be used across your marketing efforts.

  • Ads
  • Email
  • Converison optimization
  • Phone scripts

You will learn a great deal about your audience and your industry when you look through the eyes of the search landscape.

What do your prospects want? What are your competitors doing? What is missing from your messaging platform?

The content calendar is a marketing roadmap.

Understanding not only what you need to say, but when you need to release messages are key to success in search marketing and marketing in general.

When testing your website, you need to know when to run high-risk tests versus low-risk tests.

For example, during peak holiday traffic, you can learn much from low-risk testing during this high-traffic timeframe.

Write for the machines or write for the visitor?

Jason says that you always write for the visitor. Your selection of topics may be driven by the search engines’ understanding of your industry, but the content is for those entering the search phrases.

Links

Jason Fisher is an organic search marketing veteran with over 15 years of experience.  Jason has helped numerous Digital Marketing Agencies all over the country increase their clients organic search channel sales & revenue by building & executing sound SEO Strategies.

Jason Fisher’s Website

How do you do performance-based web design without putting your creatives in a straight jacket? We asked a designer that has been put in that very situation.

pictures of tom niemeyer and brian massey of conversion sciences

Tom Niemeyer and Brian Massey of Conversion Sciences


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A group of kids goes to visit a ranch. Behind the ranch house the land stretches uninterrupted to the horizon. The rancher suggests that the kids go out and play. If you tracked the paths of these naturally curious children, you’d find that they stayed close to the ranch house, not venturing far out onto the land. They would tend to remain in safe groups as they played.

The next summer, the kids visit the ranch again. This time, the rancher has built a fence to create a large back yard. Again, the rancher sends the children out to play. This time, their paths would be quite different. You would see them venturing out to the very edges of the yard, exploring in this smaller-but-manageable space. They would move more freely and play more independently.

Now, this parable is based on studies of rats. I’ve turned the data into a more relatable story.

Like the wide open land, the web offers an open expanse of design possibilities. If you believe the research and my parable of the ranch kids, you’ll agree that this may be a bad thing. The study of rats indicated that open spaces elevated anxiety in the rats, while the enclosed space reduced anxiety.

If you’re designing for the web, you are in an open space of possibility. This, according to the research, results in an anxiety response. There’s a whole lot more unknown out there, and every place feels dangerous.

Alternatively, if you fence yourself in, you actually increase the area of consideration. Anxiety is reduced, exploration is increased. But you also quickly find the boundaries.

I keep this study in mind, because I see data as a fence. It creates an enclosed space, a space that can encourage exploration, but it can also create the sense of limitation. Designers are a tough bunch. They want guidelines, but they hate the idea of limits.

This makes them seem like divas, difficult to please in any situation. So what is a data-driven marketer to do?

I decided to put a web designer on the spot.

How do you deal with designers who want guidance, but hate limitations? In other words, how do you introduce data into the design process without putting your creatives in a straight jacket?

I asked a designer. In fact, I asked a designer who we’ve been doing this to for over a year now.

Tom Niemeyer has been the designer-among-nerds here at Conversion Sciences. If there is any doubt that conversion optimization can be improved by a good sense of design, Tom has put it to rest for us.

For me the question is this: How close to the ranch house do you put the fence? This topic required two episodes. Listen to what he says in part one..

“Sometimes we’re running from our old Website more than running toward the new Website”

The three D’s of Web Design

The three “D”s that Tom talks about are fences.
Deadlines. Decision-makers. Desire paths. What are the primary limiters of your design process?

This is going to require some honesty on your part.

On a scale of one to five rate your current project.

  • One to five: The deadline is King.
  • One to five: The decision maker is the Queen.
  • One to five: The end-user is the one-eyed Jack.

How did you score? Most likely there are two that dominate. And this pattern shows up in all of your projects.

Would your teammates agree? Maybe you should ask.

In Part 2 of my conversation with Tom we talk about defending your design with data. Subscribe to get that next episode. And, don’t forget to send us your questions – podcast@conversionsciences.com.

Now go science something.

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